https://podcasts.apple.com/th/podcast/the-intellectual-dark-web-podcast-hobbes-locke/id1443583377?i=1000425526894 Min 41 onwards
https://docs.google.com/document/d/15j_1pcMyK_rlQlZKZ7d29qc6CdSrNz9GGnb2lTrCEJ4/edit#
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